183: Joe Ely

On Episode 183, I'm joined by Joe Ely, the acclaimed singer-songwriter and member of the legendary Lubbock band The Flatlanders. During this conversation, we talk about The Flatlanders' newest album, Treasure of Love (July 9), lost band names, other Ely supergroups, albums like Panhandle Rambler & Hi-Res, the collaboration musical Chippy, playing with Bobby Keys, and hear a few Stubb's stories. 

Note: This is the first in a three-part installment of interviews with Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Joe Ely, and Butch Hancock of The Flatlanders.

This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol and The Blue Light Live.

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Thomas Mooney  0:00  
Hey, everyone. Welcome back on music journalist Thomas Mooney. And this is new slang. You're listening to Episode 183, where I'm joined by the legendary singer songwriter, Joe ealy. In case you missed it, this is the second in a three part series where I'm joined by the flatlanders. Episode 182 was on Monday, and that was with Jimmy Dale Gilmore. And this coming Friday is Episode 184 with Butch Hancock, and of course, this one right here, the middle episode is with Joe ealy. I'd highly encourage you all to listen to these in order of Jimmy Joe and Butch, they were recorded that way. So I was able to bring up things that Jimmy said to Joe, and then of course, Jimmy and Joe to Butch. And then also I was able to like let some of those things simmer. And to get a little bit better of a picture going forward. Obviously, we talked about the flatlanders history and their new album treasure of love, which is out this Friday, July 9, that should be a given. But as I mentioned during the intro of the episode with Jimmy, there's such a rich and distinct and unique catalog within each of their careers. And that's really what makes the flatlanders the flatlanders. The flatlanders work in 1990. And going forward from that moment, because they were such a claimed solo artist by that point. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the three individuals who started the flatlanders in the 70s there are different people, whenever the flatline your picks back up in the 90s, there was growth and expansion in these twists and turns for each of them in their careers. And I think Joe maybe had the most interesting solo career of the three. He's had the most solo albums, he's been a part of other groups as well. And throughout the years, he's had what I would guess what we would call phases within the big picture. I'll use that lazy puzzle analogy here. Each of those phases, whether that would be like one record or four records. They're all important puzzle pieces that show the the overall picture. I won't spoil which of these phases that we touched on. But we did talk about a lot of my favorite moments within the Joey the catalog. So I do also want to make a little note, this episode is essentially split into two parts. That first part, we did it on zoom while the second was on the phone. Long story short, we were having a little bit of trouble with zoom at the end of that first part. So we ended up switching over to phone call. Today's presenting partner is our pals over at Desert door Texas SoTL. If you've been listening to new slang for really any amount of time, you'll know that desert door is one of my all time favorite premium, high quality spirits. If you haven't or aren't sure what exactly a Soto is. I'm going to let you in on a little secret that's going to up the game on your liquor cabinet. For starters, the best reference point that I can point you to is to think about a tequila or Moscow. Do you feel that Western desert that text is ruggedness? Okay, Soto is like that, but a little bit more refined, smooth and fragrant. It intrigues the palate and offers these hints of vanilla and citrus, there's an earthiness that often sends me right back to my transpac isn't far west Texas routes. There's plenty to love about desert door. For me, it all starts right there. a close second is just how versatile desert door really is. You can go full highbrow and experiment with concocting a variety of cocktails that call for muddling fresh fruit sprigs of time sticks of cinnamon, it's perfect for that world. If you're a little bit more downhome if you've just rolled up the sleeves of your denim Wrangler button up, it's perfect for that as well. If you're just designing something that short and sweet, it hits the mark every time does adore is genuine and authentically who is Texan, it's inherently West Texan. They harvest Soto plants out in the wild and are knowledgeable conservationists at heart. That's obviously something incredibly important to me. They shine a light on what makes West Texas special and unique and worth preserving and keeping it safe from exploitation. Right now, you can find desert door all over Texas, Colorado, Tennessee, and there's budding numbers in places like New Mexico, Arizona, California and Georgia. Best thing you can do is to checkout desert door.com to find where desert door is locally. Again, that's desert door.com. If this is your first time listening to new slang, we would appreciate it if you go ahead and give us a follow. If you're on Apple podcast, leave one of those five star reviews. Of course, super grassroots around here at New slang so Telling all your buddies and pals and friends and family about new slang that really does go a long way. Go follow us on all the social media stuff, all the links that I just mentioned, they will be in the show notes as well check out the merch store. That's new slang podcast dot big cartel.com t shirts koozies. All that kind of stuff. Right over there. Anyway, I don't want to ramble on too much. Let's get on to the episode. Here is Joe, he

talked with Jimmy, I guess, last week about the project. So that was a great experience. And I love to how I've been able to get all three of you individually. Because I think like that, that way you guys can ramble on

Joe Ely  5:42  
in my life looking back on it, you know that that was songs on this record those and a very important part of growing up and when I put a band are at nine have some sleep recorder didn't have any. Any other way to get it. So I had read the lyrics as fast as I could not always remember the melody cuz I was always played some kind of instrument when I was growing up. So yeah, that that that's a good question. Because that that was my early earliest memories of capturing songs and taking them and putting them in another place so that they could be portable.

Thomas Mooney  6:34  
Yeah, it seems like a, you know, a very magical time in this world where that, I guess, like, you know, it this, this interesting time when Barry reached out and kind of still feels like part of, you know, tapping into and showing off what's happening musically to all these, you know, essentially kids and people in their 20s and showing them that, you know, there's regional music, and there's all this other great stuff that's happening in other parts of the country and world.

Joe Ely  7:09  
Yeah. Yeah, we were fortunate to have that regional feeling to everything, you know, because I mean, back in, when we were growing up in the 60s and 70s. And, well, even the last part of the 50s with with rockabilly and stuff that it was, I don't know, just look to, to Mexico, where Walkman was was, is 407 miles and workman's power, he had 100 watt station out of Mexico and and so it would reach halfway across the United States in both directions, change probably very little from wolf man's original, you know, his original radio show every night. But at something made that even more you know,

Thomas Mooney  8:16  
something attached to I guess, this time period is, is that since, you know, from for this period, especially if you're growing out here in West Texas, you know, your parents were working agriculture or worked real small kind of industry way, but then all of a sudden, you're tapped into the other parts of the world and then you're tapped into once you become an adult being able to travel anywhere, right? And it's, it's kind of amazing, where there's this like, rapid six, this rapidness and in technology, but you also have this one foot in the past where you're, you know, talking like you You still have all these memories and this tradition from from family who, you know, what, I'd kind of call the calloused hands. Generation right of of being at like working hard hours. out was within in an in an agricultural sense. And you guys have all like, especially you, but like the flatlanders in general, people from Lubbock, have always been in both worlds. And in a sense. Did you guys feel like even back when you guys were playing in the 70s that you guys were doing this? Or was that? Is that something that? You know? Is it just now that whenever you look back that you kind of realize that we were singing songs that were you know, going into the future? But then also, you know, paying homage to the past?

Joe Ely  9:51  
Well, yeah. When I was a kid, my daddy How to use clothing store down on Broadway in Lubbock. And he would, he would hire me on the weekends to come help him.

Because it loves being an agriculture a huge cotton town, on the weekends, downtown Lubbock would 30,000 people would come to downtown Lubbock and do their use clothes. shoppings because my, my daddy had a used clothes store called the Greg, the Disabled American Veterans store. And it was where people donated, donated all kinds of things that we sold in that store for, you know, real reasonable. And it, it was like, those were people that came up from down in Mexico every year 10s of 1000s of people would come and buy their work clothes, their, you know, their groceries, what they needed. And, and it was my daddy taught me a lot Spanish and I learned a little Spanish in order to communicate, and put me on the cash register selling, you know, used clothes stores, to the migrant workers. And outside the front door that use clothes store was was just you might as well have been in Mexico because it was like they were bands on the corner accordion bands and bajos and, and it was just such a such a whole different culture than Lubbock that it opened a door that I didn't know existed and they they all the workers worked out on the like, some of my relatives had cotton farms, they needed cotton pickers and stuff. So I had all of these connections to the past where I actually did, you know, make work calluses on my hands instead from lifting those bales of bales use clothes. And so I look at that as very much where an inspiration where the subject matter of a lot of my songs came from was working and living and and fighting to, you know, to keep alive. And that was that was a specially getting to know Woody Guthrie songs during that time, made a big, big turning point. To me when I was a teenager.

Thomas Mooney  13:01  
Yeah, I have a friend who often talks about how it always takes that one person who's as you kind of said, like, just one degree away from like, the the people who are working hard because they don't necessarily have like the time to or maybe like the the ability to take and make their story into a song. And it takes a you know, obviously an artist or a special person to be able to tap into those experiences. But then also you have the resources in yourself to make that into an actual song or a novel or whatever the case, whatever medium you're looking at.

Joe Ely  13:45  
Yeah, that's too I mean, the same person can look at, look at the same scene and see a whole bunch of different things. One sees the emotional part of it and one sees that the social part of it, you know, there's all these different parts of this same scene, I can love it, the scene is just play it played as a you know, skill and, and see a story there. You know, because there's basically some people just look at that and that's a bunch of emptiness you know, that to fill it with song or fill it with story or something from yourself from your own soul. If you put that in it then then it can become something that people relate to. And and can go on into into the world and be picked up by Other people along the way. And add to it, change it, put their own stamp on it and and then toss it out into the big wide open.

Thomas Mooney  15:20  
That's something interesting you said there as far as the, the, the emptiness out here in West Texas and Lubbock that that void, that empty space, right. You know, in the past when I've talked to someone like Terry Allen, he's always talked about how that space kind of affected even the way his song sound where I guess maybe sometimes people want to fill in a song with just just so much stuff, sonically, and, and make it filled up. And I guess like one of the things that he always talked about was how space is even a sound, emptiness is a sound, how, how important do you feel like that's been to understand that like that, that can be something that that affects your your music and even just a little pause is a is necessary in a song.

Joe Ely  16:18  
Yeah. Well at SEMA, overlook my, you know, songwriting, live is different times require different kinds of emptiness, you know, and then, and then there's some times that all that emptiness dried up, and all of a sudden, it was like, everything was going on at once, then there's sorrow in my life. And that had to be translated into a sound too. So I had to drop the One World and go into another world. And in order to keep I guess, traveling for me, was course leaving love going out into the world. But then I went to, went to New York City when I was 17, and, and all of a sudden, that was a whole other kind of song, you know. And, and I think I kind of learned by doing that. And then after going to New York City, this was when I was about 18 or 19. I joined a theater troupe and played guitar in, in a band in this theater troupe that was had come to Europe from the University of Texas. And all of a sudden I had was putting songs together for a different country, a different city a different life. And then Brad always advan myself, This is interesting. whenever I'd start on a new record, I'd always come back to West Texas. That seemed to be a starting point for me. And that was like, excuse me. That was like a always kind of a new starting point for working on a new record or, or even just a song and that's Yeah, that's, I have that same feeling.

Thomas Mooney  18:36  
Yeah, the just always having that foundation of, of the the South Plains for something. Yeah, that's, it's something that you can obviously see, you know, in so much of your music. This episode of new slang is brought to you by the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas. Blue Light has long been the heart and soul of the Lubbock singer songwriter scene, and has been a home away from home for some of Texas Americana, country and rock and roll's finest over the years. Talk with 99.9% of the Songwriters who have come out of Lubbock and the panhandle at large over the past one years. And they'll point to just how integral and necessary the blue light is, with live music and touring slowly but surely coming back spots like the blue light or getting back to their usual ways as well. That means music every night of the week. Do you want to see that schedule? Well, I've got a few options for you. One, go to their socials and give them a follow that is at blue light live on Twitter, at the blue light live on Instagram. And of course by just searching the blue light live on Facebook. They're consistently posting that week's lineup of shows as well as those heavy hitters that ought to be on your calendar that are coming up on the horizon to check out blue light lubbock.com As well, there they have the full schedule, the cover charges time, any of those specials that may be happening while they're go check out their merge page. They have a wide range of hats, koozies, hoodies, sweaters, beanies, jackets, and so much more. You can of course, get all of your merchant age, when you go see your favorite band, take the stage at blue light, just ask the bartender and they will get you all set. Speaking of which, that's another great way of seeing who's playing there, just go to the blue light. It's at 1806 Buddy Holly Avenue here in Lubbock, Texas. And of course, again, that is blue light, loving, calm. I'll throw a link into the show notes to maybe I'll see you there. Okay, let's get back to the show. mentioned just a minute ago, like how you'd kind of go into these different worlds, these different realms, depending on what's happening in your life. And one of the things I've always really appreciated about your catalogue is the that evolution in that adaptation, as you go through these years, where you do have these different, you know, moments were, you know, obviously those early flatlanders that's like that. This was like real folksy. You mentioned Woody Guthrie, almost in that kind of sense. And then, you know, the those first couple solo records, it's like this country rock, brand new spanking like you know, a lot of great guitar playing, and Honky Tonk tennis and then you dip into these other little moments like obviously like high rez like that's something onto itself. And then fast forward to like, now we'll go to like now where one of the things I've really one of the records that I've really loved is been panhandle Rambler. Because I feel like you really just paint the Southwest in a way that's not been done. It's just kind of rarely been done where you're, you're using these different guitar players and different kind of string instrument guys to capture a different essence of West Texas was specifically on like that record. Can you take me back to like, whenever you were kind of putting that together those songs together and wanting to you know, use a lot of more, I guess, like the, the instrumentation do a lot of the storytelling as well.

Joe Ely  22:38  
Yeah, that I wanted to first of all, kind of open the record with some music that would tell you where you were. And I have always thought that's kind of important to not always important, but most of the time to let the listener know where where he is he doesn't have to say anything or do anything but maybe just three notes of a guitar or something you know, that is Oh, okay as close to Odessa but maybe further south. And then kind of nurture that add to the story. This may be a person comes into the to the story, almost like a book is where it's opened up to one a little by little you, you get an opening, you get a new page to turn over. And, and not make it not make it let it become you know, kind of corny and unbelievable but just Adam just enough to where just maybe a car goes by, or you know, something that happens all the time, but it hadn't happened in your song yet, but somebody comes in somebody knocks on the door. You hear a car screeching out in the distance and you know, blinking red light, you know, just adding things as it goes through music and through developing your characters. And that panhandle Rambler, I think I had worked on things like letter to Laredo and records like that, but I think panhandle Rambler kind of opened the door to kind of controlled emptiness, you know, more so than anything I've ever done before. Yeah, that

Thomas Mooney  24:56  
that record just feels like it's a lot of songs where as you mentioned, You know, you're kind of putting the listener into these places within those first few seconds with with instrumentation. And it's they're all like scene setters in a lot of ways. And you kind of highlight some of like the ordinariness of the magic in the ordinariness in a sense, because like, sometimes we don't take the time to just look at just the, the beauty in the ordinary or the the, the just what just commonplace and I think a lot of that record mixes those two worlds together.

Joe Ely  25:41  
Yeah, yeah, Daddy, I'm glad that, that you see that because that's ordinary is is a good word for it's kind of like that movie, The Last Picture Show. Everything is this kind of ordinary, and everybody's trying to be not too noticeable and everything they do and anything they say and but underneath it all, there's something brewing, that is, you know, not ordinary, it's, it's like it's, it's serious, and you got to take it seriously in order to get to the next step of the story.

Thomas Mooney  26:32  
Right, you, you mentioned Odessa or south of Odessa in in a sense a minute ago. One of those early flatlander records that that ended up getting reissued was the Odessa tapes. And, and I think that like, so I'm from Fort Stockton originally. And it's hard to understand like, or like fathom Odessa being a place where people would go and record music. But, you know, you you hear stories about it kind of being more of a recording town than anyone I think now, whatever imagine, what was it like, back then, as far as you know, that being a place where, you know, you'd go and cut a record or cut some songs and other artists were going there?

Joe Ely  27:18  
Well, we had I don't know exactly the steps and all but we had gone down from Lubbock. Somebody wanted to put up some money. Oh, the guy in Nashville who we were thinking about recording with. Shelby Singleton had recorded some stuff and we wanted to well, hell, we wanted to kind of we wanted to do it in Odessa, because we'd heard at the studio, that Tommy allsup, who was great guitar player that traveled with Barry Holly and, and Roy Orbison. And all he had after Betty died, he put his money that he had made in recording in a different studio in Dallas. And he put it in into the Odessa studio away out on the north end of Odessa in an everyday looking concrete box, with gravel front yard and pickups parked all around, it didn't look like anything, no sign or anything. And he had put up the money to put together a collection of songs and that became the Odessa tapes. And we only had like, I think, five hour four hours was that and then we finished and drove back to Lubbock and became our demo tape. And and it took me forever to just to find a tape recorder that would play that right because it was a three track. And nobody made three tracks anymore. No three track Ampex they used to use in Nashville allotted, they'd have, they'd have a stereo set, left and right, and then in the middle have a solo where they put the vocal. So the vocal didn't fight with any of the other instruments. And that was what Tommy alsip had put in his studio and and we got to spend an evening listening to it, and I'm recording there, which later turned into the Nashville recordings. So yeah, that was that was kind of a big part of you know how those records came about. And we were just developing inside of ourselves. Just developing stories that were part of West Texas.

Thomas Mooney  30:33  
Right? That's a, something else right there where that I've always really loved how you guys almost have like this shared song catalog where, you know, songs get cut by each of you solo, and then maybe like on a flatlander record, and then maybe 20 years later, and then maybe 20 years later, for an acoustic live record, or whatever the case and the songs, they may be the same song, but they have these little worlds, in which they sound differently. I've always really liked how the see like the how a song grows? And in that capacity, has that been like, have you guys had any conversations about that as far as like, Oh, you know, like, what, what's the not necessarily like, you know, what's the best version of this song? But like, Oh, you know, I never saw this in that song until you did it. Insert on this record. What's that been,

Joe Ely  31:33  
like, on this current record, is actually a song that we two separate versions of a song called

Oh, which is, which is song. Anyway, there's two different versions of it on this new one. And, and we have we evolve over time, sometimes songs get better, and sometimes they get worse. We have to be careful, but we have recorded different songs and some of them at quite different whole meanings, you know, same music, the different meaning. And that's what I've spent my whole life doing is listening to listening to tracks and finding kind of their inner story, that inner secret part of the song and, and try to bring it out to where it's you know, understandable when and where it didn't get in the way.

Thomas Mooney  32:56  
Yeah, I think there's there's something to know. Maybe the secret in some of these songs is, is listening to the the four or five versions of if you were a bluebird, that it's it's somehow like you it's one of those a Venn diagrams, it's somewhere in the middle of all those songs.

Joe Ely  33:16  
Yeah, so that song probably has dozens of different versions that we have recorded as the flatlanders in my band, and, you know, different different incarnations.

Unknown Speaker  33:31  
Hmm,

Thomas Mooney  33:32  
the, the one thing that I mentioned two seconds ago that I find fascinating for you, and your career is the high rez record, that you guys also then put out as before at four, since you guys recorded that on a Macintosh before anyone was really doing that kind of thing. And Macintosh is just an apple two. Well, I what I find fascinating about it is like, you know, that's something that no one was doing at the time. And what what a like, kind of drove you to kind of go in that route and trying to discover the maybe like, what could be done on a on a computer?

Joe Ely  34:19  
Yeah, that that was a funny time in my life where my brother he got an apple two computer and and there was this little, you know, keyboard. In fact, I still still got that old computer. But I was just fascinated that people started writing little, little sequences and step for it and and it really fascinated me and basically I just took a year off and messed with that app. Computer and that became the, the record before 84. And didn't, it didn't please the record company, because my West Texas country fanbase was not didn't feel included in that period of my life. But, you know, it was at a time when I had to kind of do something else, because just the way that my life was going, I had to do something else. And so I'd spent a few months, just putting the before 84 record together. And in In fact, while I was doing it, even got even got to me a couple of their Apple guys who had invented the Apple Computer, Steve was in the air. And he was working on music, things for the computer, and I met him at the University of Texas at a seminar one time music seminar. And Steve was talking about the future of Apple computers. And this, this was like 1979 78, or something like that. It was very, very young technology. And it was the beginning of it was completely useless and not worthwhile. But then as people started coming into the flow, I recorded a record that that I still like to listen to, because it's

kind of a for me, it's kind of a breakthrough, it's calibrate, maybe to others, it might be a breakdown or something.

I found it really really fascinating to to put that record together because I was always growing up the year 1984 was real big in my in my imagination as to what was going to happen, especially musically and in in the upcoming years. And he encouraged me to to just look at all different things not just you know, including computers. And sure enough it turned into I wanted to I wanted to just work on it. And so I did very little explanation and and it was not until it actually came out that a lot of people kind of one big gasp in the room. What the hell is he doing? And at the end it kind of amusing because sometimes people take things too seriously when they should find out the boundaries of where you can go and something for me that was that was a

Thomas Mooney  38:24  
couple of looked at as making your songs better or your your craft as a songwriter better has been that you've you've also done things outside music, and I'm talking about you know, a couple books that you've published and like you know, like the the play chippy. There's a lot of you guys have had little other things that you guys have done. If that's like, you know, Butch with photography or or Terry with all of his art or even someone like guy Clark building guitars, I think that works a different part of your brain. I don't know if like people do that enough. Now. It's it's something where like, people just kind of get fixated on I'm just I'm a songwriter. And that's all I do kind of think when maybe if they if they looked further.

Joe Ely  39:19  
Yeah, then all your songs become about being a songwriter. Not a exciting world to live here. You know, it's basically, you know, a coffee table and a pen, you know, right? Yeah. Well, I like how I like to, to kind of step over the boundaries, it gives me a sense of escape for one thing. And, and it also gives me a sense of opening up possibilities. And I think songwriting is all about opening up possibilities. Hmm

Thomas Mooney  40:01  
What is what's it been like as far as you know, a project like chippy that, you know has all these other great artists that are on it that collaborative what was that collaborative process like in how'd you get involved was was working on that were

Joe Ely  40:24  
mainly working with Terry on Terry Allen on stuff we friend of ours had run across a somebody up in up in North Texas who's working on a piece about a prostitute that lived during the dustbowl days in West Texas. And,

and she was a prostitute and also imagined herself kind of as a writer, you know, and regret kept a journal diary.

And And there came a time when we talk to her about taking the diary and, and fleshing it out. And Terry, called me and asked if I would look at the diaries and then read and then write some songs during the Oh, I think it was when was the desktop, the teens 20s somewhere back in there. And and so the story kind of came out of this, Valerie, this West Texas prostitute and then the songs different people came to work on him. Robert Earl theme, Butch Hancock, Jimmy worked on on it for the first first year we did it over a period of two years. And then again, it was it was a, an extension.

Thomas Mooney  42:16  
I want to break one more time to talk about our pals over at Desert door and offer up a quick Thomas Mooney, cocktail minute, as I've said probably 100 times by now, by no means am I a seasoned mixologist or bartender, but these have been some of my desert door go twos. For starters, let's just go with the tried and true range water. pop the top off the topo Chico, take a good swig. Now pour in some desert door and top it off by throwing it if you lime wedges never fails. This one. It's so simple. It probably doesn't even count. But again, pretty foolproof. do the exact same thing. But get you a Mexican Coca Cola. I guess you can go with a regular one. But you're really cutting yourself short if you don't opt for the Mexican import variety. All right, here's the change up you've been waiting for. Desert door sangria. This one is prime for when you have company coming over and you aren't wanting to just be over there making six different drinks at a time. What you'll need is some desert door. Obviously, a bottle of red wine, honey, boiling water, apple cider, apple cider vinegar, some cinnamon sticks, a couple of apples, and some time sprigs. I know that may sound intimidating, but trust me it's worth the prep. And honestly, it's pretty easy. For starters, get you a Punchbowl. Add that honey, those cinnamon sticks and the boiling water together. Now you're going to want to stir that all up and let it cool down for about an hour. So remember, patience is a virtue. Once that's done, add some desert door and stir vigorously. Now add the one the cider and the vinegar and continue stirring until it's equally mixed. Now slice those apples up and toss them in. Put in those times sprigs as well. Now you can pour that over some eyes and you have a modified sangria chef's kiss. Anyway, those have been some of my favorite go twos as of light. And remember desert door is as versatile as vodka and more refined, smooth, complex and intriguing than tequila. It's rich and balanced. And whether you decide to keep it simple or want to experiment. Desert door is that perfect Texas spirit. There's plenty more recipes over at Desert door.com as well. Check out the show notes for a link. All right, let's get back to the episode. Well, um, I guess like where I want to pick up back pick back up on is how Um, you know, you guys were such a monumental band, without like, obviously having the that career where, I guess with the flatlanders, as far as having that name recognition, it was more of a, you know, as that the the 90s record, the reissue of swords, more legend than a band. But still, like you guys had such an impact on the music of Lubbock, and the music that was coming from West Texas. And you see that a lot in the of even contemporary and modern modern artists that are coming out of Lubbock. some reason, they're, they're still tapping into a lot of the things that you guys were singing about and writing about. And I'm talking, you know, even even folks who aren't necessarily from Lubbock, like like Ryan bingum, for example, yeah, I'll just kind of like tapping in and looking at you guys as, as kind of like that foundational ground level of songwriting out here. And I know, like, you know, someone like Ryan has been, you know, a guy who's looked up to you and has called on you and Terry for advice, that kind of thing. What, what's it like, I guess, you know, seeing seeing artists who were making music today, you know, looking in drawn inspiration from from the stuff that you guys have done?

Joe Ely  46:32  
Well, yeah, you know, it's kind of like, where we're the best known and unknown band, you know, we always joke about where the flatliners but, you know, we have when we, you know, set off in the world, we didn't really have any purpose or ambition whatsoever. We weren't like, setting out to, you know, to win awards, and travel the world and stuff. Because we were really just fascinated with the music, and how the same song can be sung in 4000 different ways. And, like, the Dylan song that we did on the record, she belongs to me. It's just kind of a, it's just another love song. But it's unlike any other one. Plus, it includes strange twists that throw you throw you under the bus, almost, you know, and then you say, How did that happen? And we were always looking for, and those kinds of things happened in so many different songs that happened in blues songs. You know, just a phrase that would, would grab you and put you in a headlock, you know. And so, I really don't know how that happened. It was just, I think, three, three guys bumped into each other, and they all three had a open mind and, and a curiosity to what could be or what can be. And, and we didn't look at where it would take us are, are so many people now. who say, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna, you know, I want to get on this show, or I want to get this award or whatever. And, and it's, you know, I just kind of laugh at that, because that's not what a song is about. Right?

Thomas Mooney  49:17  
Yeah. It's, it's kind of putting the cart before the horse and a lot of ways if you're looking for all those accolades, before you even get started, or even before you even, you know, trip over your first stage chord.

Joe Ely  49:35  
Yeah, no, it's, it's funny. Yeah. Look at the people who influenced me like, going all the way back to when I was a teenager when I was 12 or 13. Like guitar players like I remember my

Unknown Speaker  50:00  
My mother

Joe Ely  50:03  
opening the door, I heard I heard a knock on the front door and opened it. And there was a guy standing there with a steel guitar in a case and asked if he could come in and give us a demonstration. With a steel guitar demonstration, where else in the world could you run into somebody given a steel guitar demonstration door to door. And of course, my mother opened the door and letting me in and he set up this Oh, wha hoo, amplifier. I know that because it had a palm tree on it. And, and gave it a little demonstration of Hawaiian music, which, of course, later made its way to Canada, Western music of the 20s and 30s. And so, you know, it was things little things like that, that just happened. Another guy down the street had a Fender reverb. And a strat. And he knew all the venture songs and but but nobody knew him and nobody knew that steel guitar player, it was just their love of music passed on. And, and it was things like their things completely out of the blue. That act credit. You know, my inspiration from

Thomas Mooney  51:51  
Yeah, all these little moments that kind of just those moments. Yeah. nudge you in one direction. And, and, you know, years later, that's, it's interesting how you've kind of pinpointed them to you've been able to reflect and in pinpoint, even just the stuff that may have been, you know, that door to door guy. How many times did he do that that day? And you know, yeah. Could he remember?

Joe Ely  52:20  
Maybe not now, and then probably probably was turned away, you know, 80% of the time, you know, that I just kind of, and I think you know, Butch and Jimmy they had that curiosity, Jimmy had that curiosity on how to you know, properly saying Hanks no song, you know, and, and he had a kind of a spiritual guide that kind of gave him an otherworldly sound. And then Butch had just a uncanny ability to, to take just a regular song that had been written and turn it around where it was, it really was a song, every every word, every verse. He had an amazing sense of where rhymes come from and where they go. And, and, you know, all these things kind of added up into when the three of us got together as the flatlanders. You know, it was pretty, pretty amazing stuff. And, and although we didn't, we didn't really even call ourselves flatlanders at first, because we didn't have much else to go on. But just you know, that first record, we just took the songs that we got fit together and and then put them into a record later on my band. kind of did the same thing only in a more rock kind of way with the West Texas guys that were in the 50s like Roy Orbison and Betty Holly and all this is incredible singers and songwriters. But it was I don't know if it was just luck of the era that I grew up in or what but all of that just seem to have a mystical mystical incantation.

Thomas Mooney  54:58  
You mentioned how You know, early on, you could sense that, that Jimmy had tapped into this spirit of troll realm, if you will, right of the, of the way he's able to draw something from a song pull something from a song. And I know talking with Jimmy, he had mentioned that that Butch was just right off the bat really profound at writing. And you mentioned it just then too. Did you? Do you feel like you were tapping into something early on to or do you think? No, it

Joe Ely  55:33  
kind of took me a minute, it took me just kind of a fascination with everything I was just had, you know, always curious. And, and then discovering, because I was kind of out into the world after my daddy died at you know, I had to find a way to make a living and support my family and I got a job at the chicken box on 34th Street across the street from Tom and bingos. I don't know what it is now. That I got a job there after school, washing dishes. And and then I kind of the thrill of that didn't last very long. And so I started playing more. And in doing so, I discovered that Lubbock had a lot of kind of underground musicians that nobody knew about but got together and somehow I don't know how is a communication back then was not so hot, but somehow I found like players and found Joe Don Davidson and his brother, Wally and Gary bass and Oh, just different people around town, TJ McFarland. That, you know, we're curious musicians too, and we started a band called The Twilight. And it was kind of a do 50s band, you know, kinda kind of like, okay, hang on to say, Yeah, no problem. All right. So.

Okay.

Oh, wait are our lives. Okay, wonderful. All right. And we kind of just put some songs together and and actually became a little band that splintered off in different directions, it kind of started off, do 50s band but then it kind of split off into the early, early forms of kind of going rock and roll splintered off into into, you know, Buddy Holly and elder. New new direction and everything with so and that allowed me to quit my dishwashing job and have a band that played kind of nightclubs. We played the old speakeasies where they lebrock was dry at that time, you couldn't it didn't have a strip outside the town like it kind of grew up too. And so we played the bootleg places. And there was one out on East 34th way out. going towards buffalo like and, and all the bill, black joints that were on the east side of Avenue a and and Joe Don knew a lot of blues on his guitar. And so we were welcomed to the black clubs, which was great band great inspiration. course it was never really recorded because nobody, it was kind of unspoken that there were that there was black music in level kickers you know, we'll segregated town at that time. Right But But you know, it was great for the music which later Later on, it ended up bouncing off of clubs and ended up with me and Jesse Taylor asking Stubbs at established barbecue. If we could play at his place, just a jam session every Sunday night and step said, said I was just about to go out of business and move to Denver. So don't do it. As far as I'm concerned, this barbecue place is yours, you know, because we drew a packed house. And from then it kind of spread out and it took different forms and, and people started finding out about it. And it Copic had a way of being kind of a comedian, you know, it would change in the way that the wind blew and that cotton grew in. And there was one time I think my band shrunk all the way down to three people. And then another time it it hovered at about seven or eight people so it kind of changed with the times and in doing so you know, with the music. Tell Paul a part of the process.

Thomas Mooney  1:01:37  
One of those larger than life characters that you played with, as far as the the band getting up in numbers is of course Bobby keys.

Joe Ely  1:01:49  
laugh every time I think about Bobby, he's a dear friend and one of the funniest people on the planet. And one of the most gargantuan HellRaisers that I've ever met in my life. Who could praise hell 24 hours a day, seven days a week and play and play fabulously in between. The so yeah, yeah, yeah, he definitely changed the direction of the song change this the set. And also just great panda travel where the The Rolling Stones have kind of taken a break there for a couple of three years. And Bobby kind of moved back to West Texas and started playing with the planet and with us. And then we went on the road with us and actually, was instrumental in in opening up an avenue that he talked to Keith Richards about having our band open for the Rolling Stones, which was great fun. Bobby was inspirational for that. piece of trivia.

Thomas Mooney  1:03:19  
Yeah, it's a it's one of those things, you know, when you when you watch some of those Rolling Stone documentaries, and he's in there, and it's just kind of surreal thinking like, you know, this guy's just a guy from West Texas. And, you know, he's, ya know, making music on some of the most important records of, of our lives. It's just kind of surreal thinking about that.

Joe Ely  1:03:44  
Yeah. Yeah, that was that was a great, great period of time. to wonder we made it true.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:56  
But, yeah.

Joe Ely  1:04:00  
What 4040 years of touring kind of makes you makes you strong. I guess it's 50 years now.

Thomas Mooney  1:04:13  
Yeah, well, like what is uh, I mean, I'm sure that you know, like the Knights the you can't go as hard as you as you were going in the 80s. But like, you know, do you and I guess like, you know, this is this past year. That's maybe like the the first break you've had in

Joe Ely  1:04:32  
Yeah, time. What Well, yeah. And like, well, it was about as surreal as it could possibly be. I was used to, you know, playing every night traveling every day.

You know, doing putting out a new record about every year or two

and writing constantly. Because I've always had a Oh a kind of a voice in me that says you got to finish this record, you know, and not always kind of follow that voice. And then all of a sudden, there was a big emptiness and no voice saying you had to do anything except just wonder where the world went. And, and for somebody who had been on the road for that long, it was very, it was literally as if I had jumped to another world, it was uninhabited. And had to make had to make sense out of it in a whole new different way. Because there was not that immediate inspiration out there, you had to go and dig for it, you know, dig deeply for it. And but, you know, after the initial shock of it, which lasted a few months, or six months or so, I guess I started putting that put in that period of time that I lost, kind of re rediscover rediscovering where it came from, and finding pieces of songs and all that I had, kind of led by the roadside. And, and started putting a record together and became love in the midst of mayhem. And it was a

kind of a strange little record for me. But it was I just figured that the only thing that gets you through if we didn't make it through in our physical world was love. And so I kind of collected all the pieces of love songs and put them all together into into a collection and and it actually became a record. And the flatlanders the new flatlanders record is kind of part of that same that same thing that happened they're going from the mayhem to the to the going back to work.

Thomas Mooney  1:07:44  
Yeah, I was gonna actually ask that how much of the last record last solo record and treasure of love? Were kind of, you know, from the same period, the the same? Not necessarily sessions, but you know, close enough, I guess?

Joe Ely  1:08:02  
Well, yeah, that kind of came from I've always, when recording a record and in my studio and stuff always just kind of leave the tape recorder on at different times, just to kind of collect ideas for possibly the next song or the next record or what, whatever came about, and, and some of these pieces, I started seeing that we had already recorded kind of the basic part of the song, and just needed to finish it. And that's where Lloyd came in. And I just said, Lord, can you take this group over? I think it was 15 or 17 songs, can you take this and just make it cohesive, make it everything feel like it's part of the same planet, you know? And Lloyd was biting at the bit to do that, because we haven't worked together for a while. And so, yeah, that's kind of where where Treasurer blood record came from? Yeah, the, the,

Thomas Mooney  1:09:27  
you mentioned a minute ago about, like, I guess, the very, very early days of flatlanders as far as maybe not having that name. And I've heard that like you guys were initially wanting to go by supernatural playboys.

Joe Ely  1:09:45  
Yeah, I think that was the first because yeah, a friend of ours had a little natural grocery store. That referenced kind of natural food and his soup I think is called the supernatural

supernatural grocery store and that we just kind of tongue in cheek call the band supernatural playboys. Because Tommy's handcar expand with the West Texas playboys. Yeah. Well, I forget what it was calling us. Anyway, Bob Bob wills his band was the Texas playboys. And I think Tommy Hancock's was the supernatural family band or anyway, we we kind of finally came to the, to the band The flatlanders. As we were recording in Nashville, we were putting the songs down and the transcriber in the studio didn't said, What are the names of the songs and where did they, you know, what is the name of the band, and we had to make it up there and their studio Steve Weston said well,

happy

super supernatural. No, the the flatlanders. We went, of course. That was in about 1969 or 70 when we were recording. So it just kind of slapped us in the face.

Thomas Mooney  1:11:40  
Yeah, any any regrets? Any hindsight, wishing that you guys would have went by supernatural playboys instead?

Joe Ely  1:11:48  
Well, no. I think that would have caused more fights than anything else.

Thomas Mooney  1:11:57  
Yeah. I was gonna get you out on this last question here. And that's Yeah, obviously, you know, people always think of flatlanders as this, you know, supergroup of sorts, and there's been plenty of super groups that have come and gone as far as you know, the highwayman. And, you know, Texas tornadoes and well, there's this one little group that another little super group that you were part of, that was just kind of there for a minute and that was the buzzin cousins. And yeah, I was gonna ask like how how you got involved with that and kind of the the the origin story there.

Joe Ely  1:12:37  
Yeah, I just got a call from somebody James Mercury, or dwight yoakam was one of those guys who were talking about James. I mean, James mercury had written I guess a screenplay with with music that went through it. And we got calls I got a call from James McMurtry saying you want to come down and play on the record that's going to be the soundtrack for this book. And it was a great cast of musicians and I said of course of course I'd love to do that and yeah, that's basically how it came about and we flew to I guess it was Bloomington and worked in john studio

and

and it became it became a record and it ever actually won a Country Music Award in I think it was about the same year is another really fun band that around that same time was low super seven I don't know if you've ever heard that yes sir. Yeah, that would started out with you know, duck song pluck of a man is hardy Myers always great Tex Mex mostly San Antonio guys, but get a lot of awesome guys too.

Unknown Speaker  1:14:24  
And,

Joe Ely  1:14:26  
and that one won a Grammy that was a big surprise for us because we were never that's the last thing we expected. We were just doing it for the for the sheer challenge of it. And, and every time a project like that comes about, like chippy came about like that. When it comes about and shows its faces as a kind of a Possible music landing place, then I always love to work on things like that, because they, they're kind of show you a new light.

Thomas Mooney  1:15:18  
Yeah, the obviously like all music is, at the end of the day, some kind of collaborative effort. But in those in those situations where you're getting with other, you know, like minded songwriters, or artists that are, that are also writing and creating, that must also just kind of, you know, invigorates what you're doing solo, or what you end up bringing back to flatlanders or whatever, it must always just kind of be an interesting case of seeing how other people create.

Joe Ely  1:15:52  
Yeah, I think that's flatlanders kind of encouraged that because it was kind of a dropping off place for you know, different ideas that could be worked on by, you know, small group of like minded musicians and songwriters. And I kind of had a way of drawn itself to that. Over the years.

Thomas Mooney  1:16:28  
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Joe, I think that's a bout all the questions I have right now for you. It's been just a pleasure. hearing all these stories and, and good. I hold your mouth here.

Joe Ely  1:16:44  
Yeah, hope I hope I didn't repeat myself too much. But I'm glad I'm glad you asked the questions you did, because it gave me kind of a different angle to look at. And it gave me a different different kind of a, you know, sad angle, I guess you'd say. Yeah. And everybody's got kind of their own angle. When you listen to music. You see it from one point but but other times you can see it from all different sides. So anyway, that's, that's my story. And I'm sticking to it. Yeah. All right. That

Thomas Mooney  1:17:37  
is it for this one. Giant huge thanks to Joe for taking some time. Treasure of love by the flatlanders. It's out this Friday. If you haven't listened to the previous episode with Jimmy, go ahead and do so. Be sure to check out the next episode, which is with Butch on Friday. Check out our presenting partners over at Desert door and the blue light live. Subscribe to new slang if you haven't just yet, and yeah, we'll see you later.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai