184: Butch Hancock

On Episode 184, I'm joined by singer-songwriter Butch Hancock of The Flatlanders. During this conversation, we talk about Hancock's West Texas Waltzes & Dust-Blown Tractor Tunes, driving tractors and working on cotton farms around Lubbock, discipline & dedication within songwriting, the diverse Flatlanders song catalog, the impact & evolution of the radio, and The Flatlanders' latest album, Treasure of Love (July 09). 

Note: This is the first in a three-part installment of interviews with Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Joe Ely, and Butch Hancock of The Flatlanders.

This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol and The Blue Light Live.

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Transcript

Thomas Mooney  0:01  
everyone welcome back to New slang, I'm music journalist Thomas Mooney. And this is Episode 184, where I'm joined by the great Lubbock singer songwriter, Butch Hancock. This is part three of a three part series where I'm joined by the flatlanders. The previous episodes were, of course, with Jimmy Dale Gilmore and Joe ealy, I would highly encourage you all to take the three episodes in that order of release, I feel like there'll be slightly more enjoyable that way. But at any rate, they are all enjoyable and stand on their own, which I feel like I keep on coming back to time and again, with these introductions, how the flatlanders career the catalog, and the impact is massive, because all of those individual careers are impressive, and trend setting. I think it was Jimmy, who had mentioned how that creative space that time and space is perhaps what made the flatlanders possible. They never got to the point where they were tired of each other, they never were too reliant on the flatlanders. They all felt that those solo careers were just as important. And again, they were necessary. These conversations with Jimmy, Joe and Butch, they've all been so incredible. And I feel fortunate enough to maybe at least have that Lubbock angle, not that any of these other interviews that I've done this year, aren't incredible and gray and enjoyable. But I feel like I'm still tied to these three right here as just being slightly more fun, because they've been on that bucket list for so long. Some interviews, you really don't have to do the homework on, you've kind of just been doing that your entire life. And I feel very much that way. When it comes to these three interviews with the flatlanders. For me, I felt like I was more just getting all my ducks in a row. And making sure I didn't forget things that I wanted to ask. But of course, as you would imagine, there are things that have popped up that I just thought man, I should have asked Joe or Jimmy or butcher this. I should have brought up this. I say that because hopefully we'll be able to do this again in the near future. It's one of those things where I'll probably never run out of questions to ask guys like Joe Jimmy and Butch. Again, treasure of love. The newest album by the flatlanders is officially out today. Go buy it, go listen to it. Go check out the other episodes with Jimmy and Joe if you haven't. Today's presenting partner is our pals over at Desert door Texas SoTL. If you've been listening to new slang for really any amount of time, you'll know that desert door is one of my all time favorite premium, high quality spirits. If you haven't or aren't sure what exactly a sotol is. I'm going to let you in on a little secret that's going to up the game on your liquor cabinet. For starters, the best reference point that I can point you to is to think about a tequila or Moscow. Do you feel that Western desert that text is ruggedness? Okay, Soto is like that, but a little bit more refined, smooth and fragrant. It intrigues the palette and offers these hints of vanilla and citrus, there's an earthiness that often sends me right back to my trans Pecos some Far West Texas roots. There's plenty to love about desert door. For me, it all starts right there. a close second is just how versatile desert door really is. You can go full highbrow and experiment with concocting a variety of cocktails that call for muddling fresh fruit sprigs of time sticks of cinnamon, it's perfect for that world. If you're a little bit more down home, if you've just rolled up the sleeves of your denim Wrangler buttoned up, it's perfect for that as well. If you're just designing something that's short and sweet, it hits the mark every time does adore is genuine and authentically West Texan. It's inherently West Texan. They harvest Soto plants out in the wild and are knowledgeable conservation lists at heart. That's obviously something incredibly important to me. They shine a light on what makes West Texas special and unique and worth preserving and keeping it safe from exploitation. Right now, you can find desert door all over Texas, Colorado, Tennessee, and there's budding numbers in places like New Mexico, Arizona, California and Georgia. Best thing you can do is to checkout desert door.com to find where desert door is locally. Again, that's desert door.com

If this is your first time listening to new slang, I definitely would appreciate it if you hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're listening on Apple podcast, go and leave one of those five star reviews. Go give new slang a like on Facebook and a follow on Twitter and Instagram. Check out the merch store which is at New slang podcast dot big cartel.com all the links that I just mentioned they will be in the show notes. Alright, let's get on into it here is Butch Hancock?

Well, I guess like, where I want to start off with is in a similar spot that I've started with, with Jimmy and Joe. And obviously you have you guys have this new record treasure of love coming out next week and as I've kind of, I guess maybe framed it a little bit to them as well as has been that I felt like this record is really informed by the radio in the sense of that, like maybe a lot of the songs that you guys were listening to on the radio whenever am radio was big, and that, you know, you could pick up stations from Chicago or you could pick up Wolfman jack. And, to me, at least, all these years later, and not really having those experiences, but hearing that generation yalls generation talk about how important radio was and all that kind of stuff. It feels like this record, since a lot of these songs are traditionals or covers, that that it feels very informed by that kind of feeling. And that maybe a little bit of those themes. What's your what's your take on that?

Butch Hancock  6:22  
Well, that's it real interesting. And, and there's a true element. And another true element to that. One is that it's true that all of those songs are, you know, certainly influenced by what we heard on the radio all through the years, especially on the border, border radio, but also a lot of the great country music station and K triple L and, and in Lubbock, you know, which is weird. I remember as I was growing up, I drive a tractor for my dad who was in the earthmoving business around Lubbock. And so I was not stuck on the same farm every day but I was stuck on a tractor just about every day it was like you know, one day I'd be riding a bulldozer another day as a maintainer and another day and and I always look look forward to lunch and not just because I knew I'd be hungry but because it'd be a chance to listen to a little bit of radio and after we got done with with ball RV I'd find something that you know some some music I could listen to I remember hearing Marty Robbins and you know Johnny Cage know all the guys you know all the old country folks and listening to it out in the middle of a you know a cotton field it was being reworked so that would hold water instead of let the water erode part of the part of the country it was an amazing experience it was really had a different kind of a personal effect on me then you know, listening to it listen to the radio running around in an automobile now that was another personal experience it was a different kind of thing so there's different layers of of how radio affects you and but as looking at the titles you know to all the songs and how I remember him first and most of them I remember first by hearing them on a record oh no LP record you know long now long time gone you know Everly Brothers things I probably heard that on the radio first but but snowing on rats own even which came much later it was I heard either heard town singing at first or heard it on the one of his first albums. And the Leon Russell thing might have heard that on the radio first but I'm pretty sure Jimmy showed showed it to me on on LP and love Please come home all the Carolina Carolina boys, both of theirs. I heard definitely heard that first on a on an LP. And give my love to rose. I have probably heard that on the radio first. But it's so there's this funny combination coming at you from not exactly two different directions. But actually two different directions. It's in the way it's not two directions is that it came from you know, it's the same recording. And the other direction is it came from the radio. There's one so one place you hear it just in your home near a radio near a phonograph player. Right? And the other way is out doing out in the world doing things so there's there's these different kinds of The facts that that you're adding to it, you know, because you're in a different place each time you hear it on the radio, maybe. And in your home, you're kind of got your familiarity and the little world you've created in your room around you. So there's, it's, it's, it's a strange thing. I don't know if I've ever even thought of this before, like this, but your question made me lay the name and come up with this movie of blues, I heard that already on a record first, you know, and sitting on top of the world, I might have heard that performed publicly sometime back around Lubbock it with you know, some of the old bands that would show up at the rodeos and square dancing, my folks used to, they didn't dance so much, but they took me to hear some and watch some square dancing. And so there's, there's things like that. It's kind of like the cosmos is active on Yeah, you know, from whether it's the night sky, or it's the sun in the moon in the sky in the daytime, and as well as just all of life on the planet. And that mysterious part of

you know, especially for for young kids that had never experienced it before we, you know, to hearing things coming in on a radio on a box in your house or, and then, you know, on a little device in a automobile that was just pretty weird. You know, you hear great music being played. So, yeah, man, it, I was lucky to grow up in a little bit for many reasons. But you know, that that strange combination of isolation and also just, you know, in your face, whether whether the in your face was literally in your face, or whether it was, you know, miles over there on the horizon? And maybe, maybe it's all those electric thunderstorms and lightning that kind of always interfered with the radio, you know, you'd hear it you'd see some lightning lightning flash and, and it same time, you'd hear static on the radio so what was with that? What's going on? It made my my primal instincts maybe wonder, Hey, wait a minute, maybe just music is coming from, you know, from the lightning, it's electrical stuff. You know, something's alive up there that's interfering with this sound down here. And it's a that humans are messing with. So I don't know that's up. Maybe that's just the way you think driving a tractor out there on that on those flat lands. I know like daydreamed about physics and music and and i think about that times when I started writing the song I started figuring out Hey, wait a minute, I could get in on this song rad business. That's that's fun. Because I've been doing a little bit of Portree little just kind of goofy Portree over the over the years, you know, starting probably in high school somewhere some English class or something. And I was always fascinated that things could rhyme and at the same time make sense that it just blew my mind you know, wait a minute, those things are not required of each other and and yet they can happen. Yeah, well, language became as interesting as the stars you know, and and as the wind You know, every you know, in spite of love having so much wind it's like every day The wind was seemed like the same in some ways, but there was a little bit of difference in it every time you experience it so and that's maybe maybe the same difference that as as listening to a radio play different songs, I don't know. Think like it at least I feel today 50 years later

Thomas Mooney  14:11  
Yeah, there's that's really interesting. What you're saying there about you know, I guess in this this is something maybe I didn't necessarily put it this way when talking with Jimmy or Joe but you really do come from that generation where there is that that break in the radio where the radio was like the the hearse of the home right the may as well be the campfire the fireplace, where you're kind of a, you know, something that you can't really you go to that room to hear and within, you know, your childhood all of a sudden what becomes that the radios able to be movable right and it's a open highway and, and fast cars and and that whole thing as far as the The expansion of where maybe, for generations, you know, there's there's people who have been living in a rural kind of way, not really moving away from home. And then all of a sudden, the, those doors are open where you have like the the ability to really get out and get away from wherever that place was, wherever your your version of home was. And it's interesting that you bring that up in, in a lot of ways as far as those two. I guess, not necessarily competing ideas of radio, but how radio transitioned in that way. And

Butch Hancock  15:37  
well, you know, yeah, you're mentioning the road with that is really, yeah, that's an amazing time in America, where, where, you know, traveling, you know, we went from traveling by buggies and horses and mule, to traveling in, in vehicles that were self motivated. I mean, you know, so powered, and, and then roads became roads took another leap. And, and the metaphor for for life, you know, here's your Walker rough and rocky road there, boy, well, you're walking, oh, man, now you're really in trouble. You're on a very smooth superhighway? Don't you have time to let's just slow down and see things, you know, there's a, so suddenly, yeah, we were, we were cast during that time of the, you know, I guess all of the, you know, the 20th century and, and great part of I guess, near the end of the, of the 1900s, I mean, the 1800s, the vehicle started to show up, you know, steam trains and steam cars and, and strange vehicles, motivating around and then airplanes and, but the the road has always been this very mystical, very mystical place To me, it's a, it's always fascinating because you, you go from home or somewhere to the next place to route go out, sometimes drive all day, sometimes you're just driving down to the downtown Lubbock, good lord, then you got to go back home, get out of there. And, you know, there's so many, so many dreams have been engendered, and broken and lived out and, and, you know, successful or failure, or, you know, all these things around around. It's not around necessarily around the roads. But the roads enable a lot of they're dreaming and are and you know, not just as individuals but as, as a as a collective and in the world caught on to that, you know, and, and, and with the Industrial Revolution and corporate automobile companies and oil companies, man, you look out roads are gonna be everywhere. And that may be one reason I'm out here in terlingua is, first of all, there was a road It was a dirt road when I first came out here, but but it's been made now it's been made. What do they call it? RV friendly. I hated that term. But it's, you know, it's true. And, and so there's roads lead you through civilizations, you know, I'm sure Rome, you know, the coming of the roads in Italy, and then throughout parts of the earth, you know, they were such an anomaly because they formerly things were only you know, calpads and, and footpaths around. And then next thing you know, there were these places worn in the ground by more than more than one person doing it, you know, maybe maybe army scattered invented roads first, I don't know. But any rate there was these things were all all parts of, you know, history and future and present all being experienced, experienced as, as the simultaneous growth of civilizations and, and decay of civilizations. And, you know, the wars. This is it's like the ocean when it's disturbed. It makes waves in all kinds of directions. And the same thing is true of the planet, I think and if human human communities and human collective if there's collective conscious, I don't know. I hadn't seen much, much favorable results out of that, but you know, individuals seem to come up with some good ideas and then and then they get dispersed and, and traded even on the stock market. So things things happen to do every year, every new plant that you know comes up out of the ground, it's a it's facing a whole world of wind and weather. And the same is true of ever every human being born we get you know, we're we're facing the cold north wind of

public education and are the are the hot summer winds? I have in the walk until we get a bicycle and then have no have a bicycle thing we get a motorcycle or car. So you know, it's weather weather comes in many forms besides the weather it's as as the as all kinds of obstructions and, and enable months. I hope I hope I'm not getting too far out here, but it seems like are always in our face. Anyway, the most far out thing right? My face?

Thomas Mooney  21:18  
No, absolutely. Yeah. The you mentioned a minute ago about, you know, when you first started writing, I know that first record that you the first solo record, you did the West Texas Wallace's and Dustbowl and tractor tunes, you mentioned how you know, when you're, you're working for your dad, and out there on those tractors and moving earth. And I guess like having having maybe a little bit of space, while you're working to be thinking about songs and be thinking about, you know, the stories that that are kind of happening around you even you know, through that window of a tractor or a truck or anything like that. I think that like, what's, what's fascinating is how, you know, we're talking about a lot of the industrial stuff and, and sure, there's, there's plenty of industrial aspects of agriculture. But what's fascinating is how a lot of people from around this area, no matter if it was back in the 70s, or today, a lot of people still are singing and writing about that, I guess, like the relationship between man and trying to, to farm or trying to, you know, put their imprint on the on the land, if you will. What, what do you think? What was it just like, obviously, just kind of, since then, since that was such a first person experience for you, that really drew you into to kind of starting from that point, writing about songs that you are running about stuff that you kind of just, you knew.

Butch Hancock  23:05  
Oh, absolutely. And, and I, you know, I don't know, whether it's, it's partly the music that we grew up around as well. I'm saying we, you know, I feel like Bob Dylan sometimes I am multitude. You know, that song that he had out a few months ago. It's, yeah, anyway, it's the, the, the relation between between tractor driving or you know, riding the car. And they can't, if you think too much, too much it it kind of destroys what you're trying to listen for. What you're trying, trying to get out of those experiences. And, in fact, you can't even if you try too hard to get something out of an experience, you're gonna miss probably going to miss most of the experience. It's, it's a matter of kind of giving up, relinquishing your own your own. Trying to think it into existence and just letting it letting the tractor drive and tell you what to write or letting the environment that you're driving the tractor through or the automobile through. Let that talk to you. Instead of you telling it how it's going to be in a song you just you wait, if you'll wait a little while be a little patient. Get the rhythm of the clouds, let the clouds talk to you let the weather the rain. You know, I would particularly the dust and the sand in Lubbock, always close. I realized after, you know a few weeks on the tractor and I was getting miserable and the dust and those storms in the wind. I said, Man, wait, man, I'm gonna be working here all year, doing this all year. I better learn to love this stuff. Because if I don't, I'm gonna be miserable for this whole year, you know? And that was like a huge revelation to me that it? Yeah, this, this, this sand. Well, I mean, I don't want to sound too sick. But it's, you know, at some point, it really felt good to get sand in the face, sand in the eyes, you know, and, and in the mouth, it was something about it, just there's some, you know, when you get out on a cold windy day, and and maybe you got your, you know, warm clothes on you, but you're walking into the wind or something about it feels good. Even events, being screamingly cold. But then, you know, but then you got to take care of yourself too. And, you know, find shelter if need be, but, but there's something about the role, the role, whether the raw, you know, hot sunlight, you know, just cooking Yeah. If you don't, if you don't get carried away with it, and let it kill you, you know, you can, it talks, it really really talks to you, and it helps your words come up in a maybe a little bit gentler kind of way than then fighting and struggling against those things. That mean, the fighting and struggling can be there any time. So you don't have to even look for that that's, you know, you can find that, you know, walking down the street or dancing at the prom or what you know, what's your view on a dance. There's, there's always the, the, the oppressive side and the liberating side of things. And it's really, really simple. You've got to do the choosing about that. And if you know if you choose the oppressive side, you'll you may have you might can rob a lot more songs, but they're gonna sound pretty oppressive. Yeah. And, and if it's if it helps liberate you, you don't know what's gonna be written and that's a joy if you can, if you can have your chops together enough to write something that makes sense out of all that wonder and amazement and love of life. Oh, yeah, there's the old saying that where I don't write any happy songs got them all you know what I'm saying that helps me but when I'm when I'm happy I'm too busy to be there. Well, I figured man that's a little bit inside out to me but there's a there's a place in the middle where it all mates where you know, they can exchange places sometimes and

up is down and down is up and and truth and fiction kinda marry up and then you can maybe carry a song often to the across the horizon and bring it back again and and it'll be fiction but it'll also tell the truth and in the process so yeah, I like yeah, that will that album that you're referring to is it was a lot of just sitting up on the tractor and just what you see is what you get Yeah, there's a you know cows in the meadow and and somebody in the meadow and others in the corn I couldn't remember what the songs were old school bass down old country road you know, just real simple and and then when I'm you know, started writing more when I was in a city or in a more show, socially active situation, you know, like college or moving down to Austin, then you get a lot more of a mix a lot of mental things going on a lot of social measurement or evaluation of everything from local politics to universal principles, you know, and it all it all comes to the table when you when you start to write and you know, when you're on track you're out in the middle of West Texas, that's that's your table right there. But in a in a city situation and traveling around the country around the world. You find yourself writing on the fly and hoping to put something together that kind of brings all of that together including the traveling. So yeah, man, it's a it's a endless possibilities. Whether you're you know, stuck in the same routine every day or, or a different place every, every few hours, you're, you've still got, you know more material than you can ever write about. Yeah, but, so that's what that's what we do. Writers anyway, keep writing Anyway, when there's nothing to write about or too much to write about.

Thomas Mooney  30:28  
This episode of new slang is brought to you by the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas. Blue Light has long been the heart and soul of the Lubbock singer songwriter scene, and has been a home away from home for some of Texas Americana, country and rock'n'roll his finest over the years. Talk with 99.9% of the Songwriters who have come out of Lubbock and the panhandle at large over the past 20 years. And they'll point to just how integral and necessary the blue light is, with live music and touring slowly but surely coming back spots like the blue light, or getting back to their usual ways as well. That means music every night of the week. Do you want to see that

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Well, I've got a few options for you. One, go to their socials and give them a follow up that is at blue light live on Twitter, at the blue light live on Instagram. And of course, by just searching the blue light live on Facebook, they're consistently posting that week's lineup of shows, as well as those heavy hitters that ought to be on your calendar that are coming up on the horizon. To check out blue light lubbock.com as well. There, they have the full schedule, the cover charges, time, any of those specials that may be happening while they're go check out their merge page. They have a wide range of hats, koozies, hoodies, sweaters, beanies, jackets, and so much more. You can of course, get all of your merchant age, when you go see your favorite band, take the stage at blue light, just ask the bartender and they will get you all set. Speaking of which, that's another great way of seeing who's playing there. Just go to the blue light. It's at 1806 Buddy Holly Avenue here in Lubbock, Texas. And of course, again, that is blue light, loving, calm. I'll throw a link into the show notes to maybe I'll see you there. Okay, let's get back to the show. You mentioned the mean you can't fight it, you can't fight what's if you're gonna if you're feeling depressed, you're gonna feel like you're you write a bunch of stuff that's has that that tone to it? Do you think that like those early days of when, when you're driving around like that, it may be in the same way that when you're typing on a typewriter, you can't go too fast, or your keys start jamming up on you that maybe being in that tractor being in those trucks where they can kind of like, I guess, maybe created a little bit of patience, and demanded patience. And then how do you feel like that's maybe like, helped you out throughout your career? Even when you do move into a city? Or or? Or maybe even like your, your photography work or your painting? Do you feel like you've been able to take that principle, I guess, and, and be able to, you know, use it in in many facets of your life?

Butch Hancock  33:32  
Absolutely. Thomas I think that's one of the more important things that's happened is you know, the tractor, right, but there was one year that, you know, one of the times I dropped out of college for it stuck. But one of the times that I drove a tractor from my dad for just about a year almost a year Not quite. And we hardly missed a day. I mean, there were many weeks where we worked six you know, seven days a week most of the time it was six days a week and with the weather the way the weather worked out we were able to move to other farms right before the bad weather hit that form you know and then and so we were just able to keep working and that set up some kind of life rhythm in me i think that that has stuck has stuck with me as you know, you know we use a measuring tape or rulers or tape measures to

to measure by the answer or measure by the by the foot or millimeters or meters Roger Have you got these days but

that when you start with a measuring device, that's the longest, longest tape measure you can imagine which would be you know, like infinitely long tape measure. That means you got something to measure anything with, you know, I've got the tape measure, I can measure anything with this thing. Yeah. Um, it may be wishful thinking, but but there's it introduced to me the idea of different I want to always try to call them scales of measurement. And that is the idea that everything you measure is, first of all, it is its own measure. And you know, all the measuring you can do with it, whether you're measuring the, you know, with a light meter to measure how much light is there, for you take a picture of it, or if you're measuring with the, you know, the rulers to see how big it is, or what kind of, you know, how many, how far it is from here over there. Those those measurements that we normally use are real good for our living in the relative world, but for in the whole wide cosmos. You know, you can't, you can't depend on, you know, the Andromeda galaxy to measure everything on earth. And yet, and yet, those are inklings of ideas about the scale of the universe. And we can sum up the universe with just one word, there are two words the universe. So that's a measurement right there. And so words, words and concepts come up. That are everything we say, as a measurement. Every, you know, every conversation is measurement against measurement. How many conversations have you had were one of the first words and almost every sentence is Yeah, but yeah, that may be so but however, listen to this. Yeah. And it's just bouncing. It's the, the cosmic ping pong ball game that's going on all the time. And language is very susceptible to that the measurement of a ping pong ball game or a tennis game, you know, first you hit the ball. Now it's in my court. Oh, my God. Now, let me hit the ball and match in your court, you know, that there's a lot of phrases in language that are exactly that measurement and, and measurement of the reference points, the benchmarks. You know, my court your court. Oh, hey, you hit that one too hard. Too fast. Oh, you're out of bounds? No. Yeah. And then we've got, you know, sports and Wall Street and religions and philosophies, low philosophies, beer, joy, and other things built out of those ways, different ways of measuring things, you know, a beer joint measures, by how you know how much beer they moved, and help you windows got broken up into there. So it's like all of our activity on earth is his measuring and trying to maybe make estimates based on those measurements about whether it's safe to go out or she'll be cower away from and watch television, you know, until we can't measure television anymore. And so I you know, that's a lot lies is just this phenomenally. And there's, that's the perfect word for it. Life is phenomena, phenomena phenomena. But it's, it's also how we measure phenomena and how we value some phenomena and, and are disgusted or hate other phenomena. And it It runs from the, you know, subatomic, to Super galactic kind of things. And but it's mostly centered around human perceptions. So songwriting is, you know, Mrs. Mrs. With his own on the level of human interactions and again, conceptual world. And I think I think Portree Borgia has this wonderful ability to jump, make jumps from one measurement to the next, and kind of bring you back again, because it kind of puts two things together that might not normally be thought of together. And it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful experience to

be moved by the movement of poetry, which moves your mind around a little into areas you might not have wanted it to go or might might not expected it to go. But you find it pleasurable goes to music. It was COVID-19 steel player please. Oh, well are you know I didn't understand the words word they said but but man is your was good. So you never know what people are learning and what they need to learn and and, you know, most of us don't know that our, our for ourselves either we just we don't know what we're learning and we don't know, you know until later Oh, yeah, something from that yeah. So it's the one thing about it It sure is good that it's fun otherwise it would be totally miserable all the time goes cuz lots of stuff is difficult and that's can be fun, lots of stuff is challenging and that can be the most fun and and they're sad things that too or is challenging and fun. And then comes the idea of not fun. But when you realize that even not fun can be fun in your mind might be making some progress. But you got to you got to live with caution and an empathy for everybody else. That's, that's where it all leads to, I think Be careful. But don't hurt anybody and be began to everyone and everything if possible. And otherwise just kind of back away from certain things quietly. Last night, I stepped outside our door here and through linguine there's a black tail rattler rattling at me. And fortunately, it wasn't quite dark yet. So I stepped out went to get a bucket to put him in. And I came back and he was gone. So remember, he went Yeah, watch the moral of all these. All of all that that I said, here it was a watch your step?

Thomas Mooney  42:02  
Yeah, absolutely. What I was gonna say is the, those roads, those dirt roads may be RV friendly now, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're, you know, rattle snake rattle free, so it's out there. interlingua speaking of speaking of metrics, and measuring things, one of the things that I've been like, the first time I heard about this, I was just kind of like, you know, kind of blown away by what the, the project and and that's something that you did back in, I guess it was around 90? The no two alike. Okay. Like, I guess like, what is that? 140 songs? Oh, you know, I guess like 14 cassettes. Yeah, what, what, what, uh, what spurred you on to, to go that route and to, to even try that, or, you know, as a, I guess, maybe fill in listeners, this live record that you did, where you played basically every song in your catalogue up to that point?

Butch Hancock  43:14  
Well, it was a bunch of, thank goodness, it wasn't all the songs in my catalogue, because there's a first couple of 100 of them are not. Not tolerable. These days, there may be four or five of that first couple of 100. But boy, I mean, I can just the other day, I totally embarrassed myself by going back and looking at it through all those all those songs. And I said, Man, these are awful, these things are pathetic, you know. And, but somewhere along, you know, 200 to 300, I really, I started you know, hitting some finally started hitting the ball. After 200 strikeouts, sometimes you gotta get the ball, it's up. And it's just a matter of maybe it's just patience or it's you know, self toleration that got me to the point where I actually could make some make some good songs, you know, pretty good ones anyhow, and gradually got more selective about what I was what I was allowing to get into the song and, and found ways and paths of moving through experiences and describing them better. I don't know. It's, I still don't think anybody actually knows how they write a song as much as they can describe how they do it. That's that anyhow, it's really it's something else happens, you know, that we cannot know. And that's part of that. That's part of the you know, the, the limitations between you know, subatomic and You know, galactic or, you know, you know, beyond, beyond just a few galaxies, that there's this range of possibilities that, that we live our lives within. And it's as far as measurement, we got talked a lot about measurement, but the key to the key to the best kind of measurement is measure lessness. Stop, stop even trying to measure, I mean, we got a lot of things we do automatically, which keeps us alive, you know, stay on the right side of the road, that's a measurement, you know, watch, speed limit now, huh? Sure, that's a measurement. But that really, when those things can become automatic, and with a certain amount of caution, certain amount of taking care to avoid, you know, collisions and, and interruptions like that, then then you've got, you've got the place where you can be that is where you don't have to measure things. You can you can, you can say, hey, do I do I love that this experience or doing not like it? It's, well, what if it's neither of those, what if it's, I am just experiencing this experience, that's that opens up a lot more potentials. Around that experience, then struggling struggling with it, and like we've talked about earlier fighting it or, or trying to praise it too much. And it becomes You know, it, once you start defining something too much to yourself, it you have excluded other possibilities from from that definition, that you start cherishing the definition more than you cherish the actual experience, which was opening you to many, many more experiences. And instead you cut yourself off. And I think that's what humans tend to do almost all the time. We, we, we want things to be in the right place when we come back to look for him, you know, or we, you know, familiarity helps us a little bit with our

faults measuring. This is this is funny conversation is turns. You know, I'm talking about music with all of this and songwriting with all of this, but I'm using these terms of measure, how do you measure something you're about to do? Well, you're, you're projecting possibilities and potentials. And you're hoping for hoping for something you know, so there's this imagery that's forming as you confront something that's that you're going to be involved in, but you don't know if it's gonna be yet you cannot. You cannot delineate exactly how it's gonna be. You know, what I think one of the most the best things about it is I don't if you ever bought a new car or a new guitar brand new guitar, killed out all the money for it. And you have right after you bought it, you go walk out being very, very happy. Oh, man, I got my new guitar. And that's pretty heavy that might last but all of a sudden, you go Dang, that cost a lot of money. Oh, I may have made a huge mistake. And it's check how can you have such a to you know, a positive positive response to it. And all of a sudden this negative guilt oh my gosh, I should have I should have bought food for the family instead of buying my guitar. And of course, you know, another half mile and you go well, I can I can get some gigs and makes more money for food. You know, so we, we keep changing our our conclusions to fit new delusions.

Thomas Mooney  49:18  
I want to break one more time to talk about our pals over at Desert door and offer up a quick Thomas Mooney, cocktail minute, as I've said probably 100 times by now, by no means am I a seasoned mixologist or bartender, but these have been some of my desert door go twos. For starters, let's just go with the tried and true range water. pop the top off the topo Chico. Take a good swig. Now pour in some desert door and top it off by throwing in a few lime wedges never fails. This one. It's so simple. It probably doesn't even count. But again, pretty foolproof. do the exact same thing but Get you a Mexican Coca Cola. I guess you can go with a regular one. But you're really cutting yourself short if you don't opt for the Mexican import variety. All right, here's the change up you've been waiting for desert door sangria. This one is prime for when you have company coming over and you aren't wanting to just be over there making six different drinks at a time. What you'll need is some desert door. Obviously, a bottle of red wine, honey, boiling water, apple cider, apple cider vinegar, some cinnamon sticks, a couple of apples in some time sprigs. I know that may sound intimidating, but trust me, it's worth the prep. And honestly, it's pretty easy. For starters, get you a Punchbowl, add that honey, those cinnamon sticks and the boiling water together. Now you're going to want to stir that all up and let it cool down for about an hour. So remember, patience is a virtue. Once that's done, add some desert door and stir vigorously. Now add the one the cider and the vinegar and continue stirring until it's equally mixed. Now slice those apples up and toss them in. Put in those time sprigs as well. Now you can pour that over some eyes and you have a modified sangria chef's kiss. Anyway, those have been some of my favorite go twos as of light. And remember, desert door is as versatile as vodka and more refined, smooth, complex and intriguing than tequila. It's rich and balanced. And whether you decide to keep it simple or want to experiment, desert door is that perfect Texas spirit. There's plenty more recipes over at Desert door.com as well check out the show notes for a link. All right, let's get back to the episode. But I was gonna relate it to is there's something when it when it relates to your song catalog. As far as like you talking about defining, once you start defining something, then like you lose the ability to like, take into account other possibilities. Something that y'all have done. And I mentioned this to both Jimmy and Joe is is y'all have like, you know, cut each other songs over the years. And there's different versions of, you know, multiple songs. And it may be a live version here. Or it may be cut by Jimmy over here. And it may be one of your songs. So there's this original version here. And then there's the the flatlanders version here. And then there's this electric version that Joe does, and so on and so forth. And it feels like that's like a very living and breathing catalog song catalog where sometimes obviously, folks will maybe get too fixated on on this being the definitive style, or the definitive version of the song. Oh, yeah, that's something that maybe that's, that maybe relates to what you're talking about there as far as like, you guys. Really never putting any of the songs in a box.

Butch Hancock  53:14  
Yeah, you know, and that's Oh, with that in mind, I've got to get busy and write, you know, do two or three albums of jimmies. And Joe's songs, because I haven't done that. And they they've recorded a lot of mine. And there's lots of lots of their songs I want to record too, because I just I love singing them and I don't get to sing them most of the time, because they're singing them. And I've been pretty busy. Right and other songs. So it's, but that's something I really I really must do. That's that's gonna be a project very soon. And, and, But to answer your question more directly, the, the, it's like, for, for a personal example, you know, selling Bluebird if you were a bluebird, I feel like I've really done that when, right about five or 10 times in my life. I've sung it to hundreds, probably 1000s of times. And it's and it's always pretty good, you know, but I'd like something's missing. But boy, the times when I've started it, I can that I can tell Oh, this is it. This is the way it's, this is the way to do it. In other words, a little rhythm like written a change or just a beat or, or phrasing or something that I do but it's it you know, and and yet every time I hear somebody else sing it I said, Man, that's perfect. Even if they think up words, you mess it up. You know, it's Wow, what a great take on that. So, so there's some of that involved in in doing songs. Oh, Again, over and over again. And because you can't really do them over again, like Jimmy says is like, you can't do anything again, it's because it's a totally new experience, that's totally new thing when you do something. So, there's, there's a, kind of a joy and newness, and in everything, if you get if you get bored by doing your song too many times, then that's, it's, it's your fault. It's not the songs fault. And it's not the number of times you've done it, it's, it's, you're going to sleep or something. You know, there's a one time one time the flatlanders back in love. This is about 70, late 70s or early 71, we will walk down to, to the pizza palace tower of pizza on on Broadway, but the next Main Street, I guess. And we were in there this this was like, you know, like 1030 at night made me 11. And they kind of wanted to close, but they stayed open, you know, for us. And we ordered a pizza or something. And, and so this friend of ours and snow, who is kind of a bullet beat poet kind of Anna, jazz piano player. really brilliant guy he walks in. And Steve was in our sole player tournament, say, Hey, how's it going? How are you doing? And it's a Oh, I'm not so good. I'm really bored Steve. And Steve said, Well, hey, come on over and sit with us. And we'll all get bored together. So, so he came over and sat down. And so we said, okay, let's see, let's see how bored we can get? Well, for the next hour and a half, two hours, we laughed more than we've ever laughed in our lives. I think we all got so tickled trying to be bored, and we just couldn't do it. Not get bored, which is absolute proof that it is it has something to do with your the way your attention is fixed in your head. And if you open it up, man, everything becomes amazing. Or at least funny.

Unknown Speaker  57:31  
Yeah.

Thomas Mooney  57:33  
Speaking of those, like those early days like that in Lubbock, I think like, for someone like me, who's covered, I guess music, mainly folks who are around my age, contemporary artists are still living in Lubbock and writing about and playing here. I think like, whenever you naturally look back to what y'all were doing with Terry Allen was doing the mains brothers, you kind of always just think it all happened in like this one. Like, like, it was just always happening. Everyone was releasing records in, you know, in playing shows every day of the week kind of thing. But clearly, clearly, it's not the case. Because I mean, that doesn't happen now. And without even being smaller back then. What was it like? I guess in those, those those moments where it was, you know, not to not to say it was boring again, but like what were those moments when it was like the polar opposite as far as like when you kind of maybe felt that like the loving music scene was, you know, not necessarily the center of the world. But this, you know, something that was special was happening there because there was clearly all these incredible artists who were playing or coming back home or whatever the case is.

Butch Hancock  58:57  
Well, I, my take on it. Sort of as you're asking, I don't know if this is it, but it's, uh, you know, we were we were there at a very peculiar time. You know, like from Well, after we were all got out of high school Joe was a couple years behind us in high school me and Jimmy were in the same same graduating class. But as we worked some somewhat into college and or took off on different roads at different times. It was also you know, Vietnam days started happening and there's there was this explosion, you know, around around the world really have a kind of a conscious mess. of Wait a minute, man. Why? Why are Why are people going over there and kill And people it's it. And a lot of us simply took exception to that, and, and it, it broke our hearts, you know about about what our country was doing over there. And others, others took it as the thing to do. And we've had friends there, you know, and that went both, you know, either direction. And with that, then some came back, and some didn't come back. But the ones that came back, there was something that that deep pain felt in their heart for what they did. And, and yet, we weren't blaming them. But but they, they felt blamed. But and it's man, that was a heavy time, extremely heavy time. And, and it may be that heavy times or when, or when freedom itself kind of feels constrained and feels like it's got to bust bust through these restraints. I liken freedom somewhat to water is that, you know, water seeks its own level, as they say. And it will find it, it'll find its way through a dam, it'll seep through a dam, it'll, it'll be faster, it'll evaporate and go over the dam. But that that's, that's what freedom does freedom. Truth, we'll find a way there's universes made out of, out of nothing but truth. And, and, I mean, nothing but truth. And, and then it divides into freedom or constriction, or restriction. And restriction is necessary to, you know, to keep us on the planet, for example, law of gravity pisses me off the long arm of the law of gravity, you know, what are you gonna do about it? Well, you can jump up and down and go jump out of an airplane, and, and you'll figure out what the law of gravity is about. But it's that, you know, the same thing applies to our hearts. We, in the heart will find a way. And when you're, when you're constrained, you will find a way sometimes, sometimes it's very damaging the way that you find is, becomes self destructive. But it's trying to find a way that's and that's why I've, over the years, I've come to listen to every sound humans make as just this incredible call for the spirit. You know, it's, it's the worst, most foul, horrible sounding utterances that people make. They're, they're a cry for help, they're a cry for wanting to join the human race, you know, what do you get out of the Get out of there entrapment. And, and that's, that's what it all comes down to, that's where we are, we're trapped on the planet, as human beings and, you know, we've got, we've got to elevate our, our heart and our, our micro arms big enough to wrap around the whole planet. Because if you leave somebody out, you know, you're, you know, that's, that ain't good. You leave somebody out of your responsibility, we're, we're all that's, that's part of the restriction to freedom. You can be, you know, freedom can make you explode, freedom can make you, you know, go so crazy that you can't come back. restriction is, has to do with all those words that that are restrictive, like, you know, speed limits, you know, limits and laws and, and, and things that are necessary to keep everybody from destroying each other, for example. So, laws, ideally, would be built around keeping people from hurting other people. Because generally people try not to hurt themselves, but they they do that too. And we're stuck with some kind of innate bill of rights within our brains and hearts that, you know, we can destroy ourselves if we want to. I'm a free person. Yeah, well, okay, radios but when you start extending That the other people? Yeah, no, you can't do that. Don't do that. It's, that's suddenly there's a new kind of law. No, don't destroy other people. And yeah, we're, yeah, we're stuck in a planet where groups of people are doing just that to other people. So it's a it's an ugly, it's an ugly part of life. And, and yet, you know, if you think of it on a universal level, a university is just eating itself up spitting itself out all the time, you know, black holes goblet, I think what the neutron star just the other day, why just the other day, which probably means, you know, she 100 million years ago, right? But

Unknown Speaker  1:05:52  
it's,

Butch Hancock  1:05:54  
you know, all the things we talked about, it really all comes down to, hey, this is so lies is awesome. And it's it has, it has a very difficult side. And the best we can do is wake up to all of that, and help other people to wake up to that. And, and, and give her give to our fellow humans. Give that you know that it's it's love and compassion. You don't hear people talking to so much about love and compassion. You hear talking about love with a little girl, you know, baby, I love you. Why'd you run off with my car? Yeah, you know, but compassion is a whole nother whole nother thing that that we're still kind of fledglings about. But, but that's the that's the great Liberator of human beings is his compassion.

Thomas Mooney  1:07:02  
Yeah, the, the combination of compassion and empathy. Yeah. Because, I mean, as you were saying, right there, everyone kind of has that inner Bill of Rights. The those things, you just know, did not do to yourself. That freedom. Yeah, I think like that's for I don't know, if it's, if it's difficult for a lot of people, but to clearly like, I guess it relates to maybe songwriters are easier to or artists in general are easier to tap into that empathetic state. Because, you know, clearly you're, you can tell other folks stories and, and try and understand their, what they're going through trying to understand what their walk of life is.

Butch Hancock  1:07:58  
Yeah, really, that's it's just opening up open the heart, open the mind. And miracles happen. It really do it with a closed mind and a closed heart, you're going to be and setting certain kinds of limits that are based on any kind of bias and prejudice, instead of based on another person's safety. Those limits will just tie you in knots. Because suddenly, you know, you said limits us and you exclude all other possibilities from those on just on the other side of those limits. from you. And, and that's, that's where her begins when you when you ball up into into the self a little too much and you don't open up Open up heart and mind to compassion and, and the camaraderie of everybody kind of being in the same boat on this planet. You know, I just love saying, Hey, man, we're all just bozos on this bus. Right? And we are we make stupid mistakes. And we were quick to forgive ourselves, but not very quick to forgive others, you know, so it's kind of a, we kind of got a lot of things backwards. But that can be worked on and that's what we got to work on. We got to keep gotta keep preaching it and then live in it and then spread the word to one. So, yeah, love, love and compassion to everyone. blessings on you.

Thomas Mooney  1:09:44  
I definitely agree with you on that. I mean, it's, I think like that's, you said, like people can work on themselves too. I think that's a real key to a lot of life right there has being able to allow yourself to To grow and evolve, and I mean, that's,

I don't know if that's necessarily the Key of Life, but I feel like that has to be an aspect of it. But

Butch Hancock  1:10:10  
well, you know, I think I think that that, you know, to grow and evolve is part of what we talked about a little while ago about freedom finding a way. And, and, and that years ago, I was at Texas Tech. And somebody gave a lecture in the Student Union Building upstairs on something about life and music, that was the title of it, life and architecture and music or something like that. And so me and two or three of my friends went to hear that it was pretty, it was a packed house. And But there's one thing I came away from that that lecture that just has continued to blow my mind in a beautiful way. Ever since. And that was he said, life, life is a spirit in search of substance and substance in search of spirit. And that it is such a beautiful thing, man, you move towards the spirit, and is moving towards you. And, and vice versa. It's a it's all the high lofty ideas we have about how how good people can be to themselves and to each other are kind of nebulous, you know? And, and that's it, that one extreme and At the other extreme, that there's this Oh, woe is me, I'm miserable. You know, I'm feeling sorry for myself, blah, blah, blah, you know, everybody's against me. Yeah, that's substance that's getting all caught up in all the phenomena and all the blaming everybody else for everything, you know, that that you don't like, and, but, so the work is taking those first few steps getting aiming back towards the spirit and, and it's, it's an inner thing, it's not like the spirit is out there somewhere. It's all inside you. And you've got to so you're actually the journey is to a greater self, a higher self, that self that includes all self. Because we're all we're all equal in that in that whole self. thing. And, and, and once you realize that, that Wow, man, you can you can have a conversation with anybody, any time and it's, it's, it can be wonderful. As you empathize them as a man, if they're feeling as low as I am today, maybe I better cheer him up. Maybe I can cheer them up, you know, and things like that, you know, we're here to, we're here to help each other alone, man, it's a it's a lot of work. But the beautiful part of it is that it begins and is fulfilled with just one one effort at that. being nice to one person, suddenly, you've got it, you've got the whole thing figured out right there. Then be nice. Oh my gosh. So all people can, can be on the receiving end of my my best wishes. No exceptions. That's become another my favorite phrases these days is no exceptions, be good. You know, go take care of everybody on the planet. No exceptions. I think that makes more sense than anything I've ever said.

Thomas Mooney  1:13:58  
I think so too. Absolutely. It's a Yeah. And in my opinion, it's better than the alternative of Yeah.

Butch Hancock  1:14:09  
Yeah, but I'm just hoping that my songs can again, you know, help uplift spirits here and there. You know, you can't always be singing the right song for for a person that you know, at any particular time, but you never know what's what's gonna, gonna come back to you years later. Somebody was deeply affected by some song you're saying. It's a I've had that happen on several occasions and I figured it must be true on other occasions too. But it's, it's a big planet that's capable of love and we're messing around, you know, grumbling in the in the sewer a lot of the time so let's My advice to everyone is a Yeah, get up, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, take a shower and go out into the world and, and be good to folks. It is it is not that hard to do. You can do it.

Thomas Mooney  1:15:18  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that it's a great note to end it on.

It's been a pleasure talking with you today Butch.

Butch Hancock  1:15:27  
Thomas has been fun man. I hope I didn't get too sad tractor derailed or anything but it'll all come back together.

Thomas Mooney  1:15:42  
All right, that is it for this one. Again, go check out treasure of love. By the flatlanders out today July the ninth. Go check out the other episodes with Jimmy and Joe. If you haven't just yet, go visit our presenting partners desert door and the blue light love. Stop on over at the merch store. Subscribe to new slang. And yeah, I'll see y'all next week for more episodes.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai